Lindauer wants a prayer before the meetings, council agrees to send to Nordhoff for review before voting

11 Comments

1. As an Atheist (gasp!) living in Dubois County this is disheartening news. These elected officials were elected and are paid to serve their people and instead they seem to want to serve THEIR personal beliefs. A discussion between elected officials, of this nature, is more akin to the politics of, say, Iran or Syria than of a modern and SECULAR country.

   The separation of church and state exists in the First Amendment of the Constitution (look up The Establishment Clause), the document Mr. Lindaur apparently wants to throw away and stick a Bible in its place.

   "And the day will come when the mystical generation of Jesus, by the supreme being as his father in the womb of a virgin will be classed with the fable of the generation of Minerva in the brain of Jupiter. But we may hope that the dawn of reason and freedom of thought in these United States will do away with all this artificial scaffolding, and restore to us the primitive and genuine doctrines of this the most venerated reformer of human errors." — Thomas Jefferson's letter to John Adams, April 11 1823

   1. I agree with Jacob that these politicians are more concerned with their beliefs than serving the public. Instead of trying to change the local government to match the federal one, maybe we should do the opposite. We need to try to stop the senate from praying before every meeting. It's discrimination, plain and simple. There are many things about our government that excludes atheists and agnostics. Such as the fact of when a person is sworn in in a courtroom they have to swear on a bible and say "so help me God". This is not the kind of exclusivity that freedom of religion was installed for. Are we going to have to declare atheism a religion just to get equal rights? I certaintly hope not.

2. It is shocking the pledge has never receited, but it is great news the council will change. It is also worth noting, the vast majority of elected bodies have a prayer. The founders only wanted to keep government from telling you who to worship via law. I doubt an opening prayer is a threat to your liberty to believe what you want to believe.
   Interesting quote from Jefferson since it is known he was a Christian. I will have to look up that letter to get the context of what Jeffereson was writing about.

3. “Our founders felt it was okay to pray to a God, specifically a Judeo-Christian God, so I don’t see why we shouldn’t,” Lindauer said.

   I will start of by saying this. It is absolutely okay to pray. It is NOT okay for our government to pray.

   Now let's move on.

   First, Lindauer is propping up his patriotism by bringin up "Our founders."

   Second, his statement is a bit ambiguous. Is he implying that all the founders prayed (they didn't) that they were all religious (they weren't)? Is he implying that they thought it was a good idea for the goverment to pray?

   Third, why is it relevant what they personally thought. The only thing relevant is what they thought was relevant enough to put in writing. Even then, we need to be smart to discover any flaws or short sightedness.

   While revolutionary thinkers, the founding fathers should not be who we look took 200+ years later regarding beliefs and guidance in present day life.

   They kept slaves. They were racist by today's standards. They prohibited women from voting and made it difficult for them to own property.

   Are we going to reevaluate our progress in each of these areas because of what Lindauer believes the founding fathers believed? Why is this stuff not relevant and the belief in Jesus, that Lindauer believes they had, is?

   Well, if it matters to anyone, I have a problem with a prayer being said but not nearly as much as I have a problem with the possibility that Lindauer appears to think it should be only his god that is prayed to.

   What better way to ostracize people of other faiths in our community than to establish that your beliefs should be only what is represented at a government function. Shame on you. If you are going to do it at least be inclusive about.

   And Finally, Lindauer's statement is false. Not all of the founding fathers were religious. But even if they were…if religion was so central to their life… then how many times do we see Christianity, God, Jesus, or the Holy Spirit in our constitution. Short of how dates were addressed, we see no reference to religion. It is important to understand why it was left out, not because the founders are wiser than us, but to see if it is still relevant, today.

   If you want to keep the government out of church then you have to keep the church out of the government.

   "Lindauer stated that since there was no separation of Church and State in the Constitution officially it shouldn’t be an issue."

   One more note, to proclaim that the establishment cause of the First Amendment does not address the separation of church and state, is profoundly short sighted and I think speaks volumes. What does he think will begin happening, that is not already happening, once he begins praying? or saying the pledge for that matter.

   (And to address the person above my comment. Would you be okay with a non christian prayer being said? Something Hindu, Muslim or Wiccan. After all, I doubt it will be a threat to your liberty.)

   1. Well said. Thank you.

4. This is what's happened to our country now…We have left God OUT!!!

5. My oh my what has happened to my country! I served my country from 1972 thru 1976 to help protect OUR constitution , where have we gone wrong ? Keep standing up for us Shane. The progressives are on the march ! Remember the progressives are in both parties ! Yep even in democratic Dubois County !!!

   1. Our country is diverse. "Keep standing up for us Shane"? Standing up for who? Christians? What about the rest of the population? They shouldn't count? Why aren't people more open minded and accepting of people of various religious backgrounds? I don't understand. Please explain.

6. Shane, if 30 years of public education has taught me anything, it has been to stand strong, keep the faith and persevere. You are doing a good job. We are quickly becoming a nation that is Godless, Jobless, Fatherless and Hopeless. Remember, "No good deed, goes unpunished". Prov.3 vr. 5,6

7. The separation of church and state is to ensure that OUR government does not try to force a certain religion on its people. By people trying to constantly PREVENT people from public prayer they are in every sense trying to infringe on the peoples right to observe religion the way they want. If there is someone saying a prayer before a ball game and you do not believe the same as they do, then by all means do not participate. Do not however make them stop because you do not feel the same, you do not have the right to choose the place or time they choose to pray. As for the council meetings, for those of you having issues with this, are you going to the meeting, if not then don’t worry about it. If all the members there choose to pray and you are there and don’t want to then quietly mind your business while they do so. While over seas for OIF we had to wait while the Muslim people observed their time of prayer. Do I feel the same as they do no. Will I stop them from praying because I disagree with their religion-no it is not my place.

   1. You're setting up a straw man argument. No one is attempting to prevent people from praying in public. They are attempting to prevent gov't led prayer. Councilmen can still pray but not when they are acting as representatives of the gov't.

      However, that is not all that has been said in this thread. I have recommended that if prayer is started that it should be inclusive of all religions, not just Christianity. Our community has hindus, buddhists, wiccans, atheists, muslims and jews. Why not give each the opportunity to lead a prayer or affirmation for the council?

      To continue, our govt does dictate how we are allowed to practice our religions, now. Obviously, the practice of your religion cannot break the law. Families that practice faith healing are going to jail when they fail to see a doctor.

      And your reference to what happened overseas is irrelevant for two reasons: 1) You are overseas and not in america so you should not interrupt them 2) Considering the amount of strife over there due to religion being in government you would think it is not something we would want here.

      Regardless, our government and it leaders sponsoring a prayer is forcing religion on people. Think about how you would feel in a room with your government leaders saying only prayers with respect to a religion that finds fault with you (i.e. damns you to hell) as a non-believer. I don't want my government to find anyone unfavorable should they believe differently than what is being prayed…and it happens.

      "As for the council meetings, for those of you having issues with this, are you going to the meeting, if not then don’t worry about it. If all the members there choose to pray and you are there and don’t want to then quietly mind your business while they do so."

      First, you ask if we are even there then you tell me it does not matter if I am there just shut up and mind my own business. Thanks.

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