Live Blog July 26 at 7 p.m.

We are currently updating the blog-cast as the Public Forum has started.

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Take part in the discussion this evening.

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For the record, the DC Freep has attempted to portray the questions and answers during the public forum as accurately as possible during the rapid succession of events, however this should not be considered an official transcript. An official transcript of the public forum will be available from the City of Jasper.

15.24

The Public Forum starts in two hours; what are some questions you have for the Public Forum? Start commenting now.

18.31

Stage is being set up for the event. Council members, Utility Board, and local citizens are starting to arrive in the auditorium.

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18.50

Forum will be starting soon. Auditorium seems about 40-50% full, and people are still arriving steadily. Some demonstrators for and against the biomass proposal have gathered outside.

18.55

Thus far, the gathered audience definitely trends toward and middle-aged and older crowd. There don’t seem to be nearly as many young adults present.

19.00

Jasper police are posted in the lobby, while tranquil music drifts through the auditorium. Auditorium seating is at least 60% filled. Doctor Johnson has begun opening remarks.

19.04

Dr. Johnson emphasizing that VUJC remains a neutral facilitator. Now commenting on questions raised against his ability to be an objective moderator. Dismissing claims that he will favor one side over another.

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19.06

Roll call taken for speakers. United States Pledge of Allegiance.

19.08

Overview of agenda from Dr. Johnson. Five minute presentations from city representatives. One hour question and answer session. 15 min intermission. Audience statements to follow. 2nd Q&A session. Johnson admonishing attendees to refraim from uncivil behavior.

19.13

Wayne Schueter giving background on power plant and how inquiries were made about possibilities for reusing this city asset. Discussing various options explored. Utility Service Board deciding to lease, not sell, plant, in order to maintain control over its use. Dr. Johnson noting that court stenographers is present and taking note of all dialogue.

19.29

Twisted Oak President Jay Catasein speaking about the excellent condition of the former coal plant. Looking at plant as an asset to be brought up to date with current technology, incorporating a different fuel source. Plan is to combine grass combustion technology with natural gas in a refitted facility. Declares emissions would be less than when coal was burned.

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Dr. Christopher Shaddix giving statements as a combustion boiler expert. Discussing potential alkali/chlorine slag issues in regards to possible emissions from biomass combustion. Twisted Oak corp has plans to install specialized equipment to help address these issues. Miscanthus considered the lowest source of such slag issues among similar alternative biomass combustibles. Acknowledges that all burning is going to produce some degree of particulates. Twisted Oak has plans to install “bag house” technology to help collect released particulates. Shaddix regards all technology being proposed by Twisted Oak as “state-of-the-art.”

Bob Clifford speaking in regards to the financial impact biomass plant would have on Jasper, whether demolished or leased to Twisted Oak corp. Arrived at the conclusion that leasing to Twisted Oak would result in a financial advantage to utility customers of approximately ,500,000.

19.33

Bill Kaiser is an attorney for Bingham/McHale that is representing the city in regards to the lease agreement. He is currently going over the 100 page document rather quickly for the benefit of the audience. The lease in its entirety is available through a link on our site under Current Events.

He is explaining the safeguards the City has negotiated into the lease in the form of funds available to dismantle the current power plant in the event there is a default on the lease.

At the end of the Lease period, Jasper has the right to purchase the plant with the updated equipment or take possession of the plant without the gas turbine system but still have the biomass energy production facility.

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19.34

The Q & A session is about to begin. Alan Johnson is explaining the proceedings and the clock as been turned to the audience with a countdown of 60 minutes.

19.36

As the time goes down they are fixing a microphone issue. Vincent Granacher has a two part question. If miscanthus is dirtier than coal, how much? If it is cleaner than coal, how much?

19.38

Answer to Vincent Granacher: Chris Shaddix aswering: Comparing miscanthus to typical U.S. burned coal. Describes miscanthus as “very much” cleaner than any coal. Sulfur content much lower than coal. Alkali content much lower. Coal produces much more ash than miscanthus. Both miscanthus and coal used locally are considered low in chlorine. Believes no one could legitimately claim miscanthus is as dirty as or worse than coal. Lower emissions across the board with miscanthus. Particulate matter might be close to, but a little less than with coal.

19.40

Cara Beth Jones, “Since there has been no compelling evidence to support the farmers growing this crop what is the incentive for the farmers to grow this crop? How much miscanthus was co-fired with another catalyst?

Register now for Fall Classes beginning August 22 at Vincennes University Jasper Campus

19.40

Answer to Cara Beth Jones: Shaddix answering: Acknowledges that co-firing takes place, but cannot comment on tonnage.

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19.42

Carabeth began to interject with Dr. Shaddix, complaining about how she is the farmer that would grow it and she knows the numbers. She was then asked to save her comments for the comment section of forum tonight and the next question was asked.

19.43

Michael Hick’s question: Wants clarification on savings between demolishing and leasing. Believes this to be small savings per citizen. This figure confirmed by panel.

Angela Mundy question: Concernced about the ability of TO and city to waive on individual’s ability to be hired at TO.

19.44

Bill Kaiser; there is certainly interest in making sure there is no appearance impropriety, but if someone that is serving the city at this time would want a job, they would not want to limit them from a job or have to go through an official process to allow them to take a job.

19.45

Question from Colleen Buechler: Questioning how many plants Catasien has been involved with in past.

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 19.45

Jay Catasein answerd that he had been involved personally with about 30 combined cycle power plants.

19.47

Question from Margaret Baugh: Questioning the timeframe of releasing of lease agreement and meeting.

19.47

The opposition to the conversion have asked for this dialogue to occur and this is why we are here tonight.

19.48

Questioning of clarification as to employment of existing city electric employees.

19.50

Twisted Oak will give current employees the opportunity to obtain a job with Jasper Clean Energy. Schuetter then stated the employment of the current power plant workers would continue to be extended until they could be employed by Jasper Clean Energy.

19.51

Questioning city referring to citizens as “opposition.” Wants to know if this forum would exist if opposition had not requested it.

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19.51

The mayor explained that a lot of public hearings occurred and this is forum is a response to those public hearings.

19.52

Denise Schnell question: wants to know how much in federal subsidies will be involved. What are the plans for subsidies, and what happens when they run out?

19.54

Jay Catasein, the payments to the city in the form of lease payments and other payments are not tied to federal subsidies. A very small portion of the plant may qualify for subsidies.

She asked, “I thought we were told that without tax encentives this would not happen.”

The mayor answered that the city is simply going to be leasing the plant to Jasper Clean Energy and how they sell that and apply for tax credits would be up to them.

19.56

Question from Barbara Habig to Bud Hauersperger: asking why, as a utility customer, she was not allowed to vote on this biomass proposal. Will a referendum be possible.

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 19.59

Bud answered that he is not a member of the Utility Service Board and he is only an advisor. He then mentioned that there wasn’t enough information available to allow a public vote and he personally is not responsible for that decision.

She asked for clarification on whether a vote could be taken.

According to Sandy Hemmerlein any public question must have a state statute that allows that. There is no statute that allows that therefore they are not allowed to do so.

20.00

Norma Kreilein question: Why was Dr. William Sammons not allowed to present, given he is an expert in the field of the health concerns relevant to this issue?

20.02

Mayor Schmitt responds that maybe Dr. Kreinlein should speak if she feels medical expertise is needed, drawing a reaction from the crowd. Kreilein asks that Dr. Sammons be allowed to speak instead. Crow responds with applause to her remarks.

20.02

The mayor stated this is a forum put on by the city of Jasper and the Utility Service board, but Dr. Sammons can ask questions and make comments.

Kreilein then asked for clarification of the mayor’s answer concerning the health concerns and how no one is qualified to answer that question that is sitting at on the stage answering questions from the public.

The mayor then pointed the question back to her, stating, “You have the microphone, maybe you should make those statements.”

Johnson then interceded and moved to the next question and offered she could do it during the comment session later.

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 20.11

Alec Calla began took about two minutes to ask a question that ended with him yelling at Dr. Shaddix because the usher turned the microphone off as Alan Johnson requested Calla get to his question.

We lost contact with our servor for a few moments but we are back. We have missed at least two questions from the audience.

20.12

Mike Kreilein question: how do you come up with this date ahead of the proposal being released? how was date of this forum decided?

20.14

We asked the board for input, we spoke to the USB, and asked them what date to take. When we decided to select today as the date the lease was almost completed, we then decided to set this date as all of the USB and Council, as well Dr. Shaddix could make it.

Kreilein, “Why didn’t you ask the public when they would like to have it, isn’t this for the public?” Kreilein has continued to demand a reason why they didn’t address the public.

20.15

Question: Are royalties based on existing boiler or new boiler?

20.18

According to Jay Catasein, any renewable energy produced would be subject to royalties.

She then pointed out that the paper had reported differently today.

Schuetter then explained that the intent is that the city would continue to get the royalties from the renewable energy source even with a boiler casualty.

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20.20

J.R. Hoffman question: asks how much particulate emissions depends on factors like humidity, maintenance, and how the plant is operated.

20.21

Shaddix explained that certainly if you didn’t have an effective filtration system that would be true. Operation impacts what happens in the boiler, but is caught in the baghouses. Yes if you have conditions then yes you could have a slight percentage increase in particulate, but he stated he wouldn’t worry about the what is produced in the boiler; it is what gets out and the lease addresses this with more stringent standards.

20.26

Rock Emmert asked; Given the fact that 40 doctors have come out against this proposal, do any of you guys have a response to this?

20.30

Answer to Rock Emmert: Alex Emmons answers: Alarmed opinions have been taken into context and concerns evaluated.

Emmert wants further clarification of USB, Council, etc. opinions on the health concerns.

Schmitt declares there is risk in anything; relates this to his heart surgery. States that we cannot live without electricity; simply a matter of weighing risk vs. benefits. What are you willing to accept for the benefits of electricity? States it is unfair to place all health concerns onto the shoulders of the biomass plant alone.

Emmert wants to know if a medical impact study has been performed regarding the impact of the emissions on neighborhoods.

Applause follows Emmert’s statements.

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20.33

Bob Alles, to each council member and the mayor, you have the ability to demonstrate integrity by pledging that you or your family will never accept any money from this power plant.

Mayor Schmitt, states that his office has never been for sale and never will be.

Alles states that if that is the case the mayor should just sign it and the audience applauds.

Mayor then states that if the same standards applied to Alles, he shouldn’t be allowed to go to another school to teach after he taught at the catholic school.

Audience applauds.

20.33

Michael Hicks question: “taxation without representation” disheartened by unanswered questions…..wants to know if some sort of consensus can be taken to see if citizens of city actually want this plant. Why was Dr. Sammons allowed to participate on the panel, given his expertise?

20.36

Mayor answeres that this is not a taxed part of the city it is under utilities. If you didn’t get your energy from Jasper Power Plant, you would have to get your energy from Duke, would you as a customer have a vote.

Hicks stated he did have a vote on windmills energy when he lived in California.

The mayor then stated that the city has elected the individuals making decisions and they should have faith in the board and council’s ability to make this decision.

20.38

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15 minute intermission

20.45

Forum is now in intermission.

21.00

Meeting is called back in order.

This segment will allowed concerned citizens to make 4 minute statements.

Harrison from Bloomington: States there is no law that prevents a public body from soliciting input from its citizens. Speaks concerning the health hazards of dioxins. States people, especially infants, are overexposed to dioxins. Would city take it into account if it could be proven mathematically that level of dioxins emitted would harm an infant?

States we must be our own watchdog.

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  21.08

Estella Kreilein expresses her feeling that the people of the city are having their voices ignored, based on the actions of the city.

21.11

Speaker believes we need to get a better idea of the community will on this issue. He points out that those present at this forum represent only a fraction of a percent of the county’s population. Believes we need to be forward thinking. States that issues are so heated, an antagonistic relationship has developed between the city and its citizens.

21.15

Kris Lasher; I was one of the 16 people that talked in October about concerns with where the plant was located and effects on the community. She states she has watched all the professional and the doctors state facts. She states she is concerned about everyone’s health. She is presenting a petition to the city with 535 signatures for a clean air ordnance. She states she doesn’t understand the city placing profit over health in the community. She is concerned that valued doctors are being ignored by the city and feels that the decision is already made. She states she has faith in the people to finally come to their senses.

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21.16

Gregory Kreilein concerned about the effect of this lease on his generation. Discusses his own health problems and his hopes that his own children will not someday suffer from similar health concerns related to emissions.

21.19

Bruce Liles states that, in fact, many members of the opposition have made up their minds, based on what they believe to be the overwhelming majority of expert evidence pointing to the negative health effects of biomass combustion. Money does not trump health.

21.24

Micheal Hicks: He says that ultimately this comes down to values. He understands the money, he has a finance background. States that it comes down to a person in savings a year, he states he will write a check for 00 to cover the costs of 20 to 30 other people in the community. He is a farmer. He does not receive subsidies. He does not make much money. He tells them to call upon him and he will show up with his checkbook.

He is now talking about our government and democracy for the people. He states he respects the board, Council, and the mayor. He recognizes that this forum is a step in the right direction.

Now he is recommending they do a survey to hear the people, points out that this is democracy and he feels that this is a big thing; standing before this council addressing the mayor, but he feels that the government is not leading the people they are simply managing the people.

Points to a sign in the Jasper Arts Center, the sign states Change is Coming; He addresses the board and states a change is coming to Jasper.

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21.28

Dr. Bill Sammons: States data that has been cited about particulates and health dangers has been inadequate and inexpert. Declares this is not a science in its infancy; that, in fact, we know more about particulate dangers than city speakers might lead us to believe. Emphatically states there is “no safe level” of fine particulates. American Lung Association has sent individual letters to U.S. Congressmen saying that no funds should be allocated for biomass combustion plants based on health concerns alone. States athletes who play outdoor sports suffer from much higher asthma rates compared to those who play outdoor sports, presumably due to particulates in environment. Fine particulates shown to be related to all manner of health concerns and birth defects.

(prolonged applause follows the doctor’s statements)

22.08

Rock Emmert reads from a study blaming health problems in Jasper on fine particulates, which are small enough to evade the lung’s natural defenses. His overall point is to demonstrate the excessive financial cost of medical treatment related to problems arising from particulates, which he believes is a counterpoint to the financial gains the city cites as a benefit of converting the plant to burn biomass.

Fehribach reminds us of particulates emitted by fireplaces, campfires, car exhaust, etc.

Bob Ruxer declares he will have to leave Jasper if biomass plant is established, due to his compromised immune system, even though he loves the town. Believes biomass plant is not good enough for Jasper. People do not want this, and officials should reflect that in their decisions. Feels we should not saddle a new mayor with this decision since he has no say at the moment. A reduction in electric bills is not going to be enough to bring people to Jasper and offset the negative image of the plant. Believes Jasper is the best and deserves no less.

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Denise Schnell demands time for everyone to have their concerns addressed, if not tonight, at another forum. She is embarrassed by the limited time Dr. Sammons was given to speak on the subject. She implores city to put health concerns first. She wishes for more input from local farmers, since they will be the ones needed to grow miscanthus.Reiterates the need for city to adequately answer questions asked of them.

Speaker believes that if biomass were such a promising and proven energy source, more communities would be using it. Cites lack of citizens speaking up on behalf of biomass proposal as evidence that the plant is not wanted.

Mac Steffen declares his love for the city of Jasper and notes that the city has been torn apart by this issue. Feels Shaddix was somewhat arrogant in presentation. Believes this is not the right energy source for Jasper, due to emissions. He fears the city has already been made to go forward with plans to convert the plant. Asks the board to consider the implications of their vote, also asking that the voice of the people be observed. Reminds elected officials of their responsibility to their constituents. Asks city not to be like the federal government and fail in its charge to carry out the will of the people for the good of the people.

Speaker believes financial aspects of this issue were decently vetted by the city, but that lease details regarding technical aspects related to the plant’s production are inadequate. Believes current research on plant is insufficient, that more money will likely need to be spent to fully understand what is being proposed for the plant.

Jane Melchior adds her voice to those speaking out against the biomass proposal as a “terrible idea.” Cites her long history as a teacher of critical thinking skills as an affirmation of the validity of her research and opinion on this issue. She believes that research on biomass exhibits faulty logic and methodology in many areas. She can only come to the conclusion that this project is a “gamble” and a bad thing for the southern Indiana region. Believes we provide enough jobs without needing to bring in polluting industries.

Bob Alles still discouraged mayor refuses to sign a pledge that he will never financially gain from the conversion of the plant. Implores council to state why they are voting yes or no to proposal.

22.12

Angela Mundy has multiple questions after her perusal of the biomass plant lease agreement. Cites vague statements in lease, particularly Exhibit 17 -9. Disappointed with what she feels is uncooperation and silence on the part of city. Feels this issue is still a question of the city leaning toward choosing money over health. Challenges her own district’s representative to vote “no” to leasing the plant.

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22.17

Speaker addresses the issue of litigation against the lease proposal. Denounces anyone who would support litigation, while expending energy and producing waste during their own daily lives, believing such a stance is hypocritical. Implores city to take a consensus to see how community at large feels.

22.30

Margaret Baugh speculates that city employees may live in fear of punishment should they speak out against the biomass proposal.

Chelsey Ruxer reads from a report that cites deficiencies in “bag house” emission control technology and the continued danger of ultra-fine particulates that the device cannot fully filter. Research shows that even a perfect emission control system will inevitably cause some deaths.

Alek Calla states Shaddix’s data was incomplete, particularly regarding the scale of biomass combustion in Europe, which Calla states is very limited, and the challenges of combustion in regards to agricultural fuels. States that boiler in Jasper will be much larger than any studied. Also believes previously stated financial gain to city has been inflated.

Cara Beth Jones casts doubts on whether the lease will actually work to the city’s advantage financially. Also raises the fear that no actual copy of the lease will be in existence for public record. States the biomass proposal is a “stupid bad deal.”

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 22.38

Dr. Norma Kreilein states we should put more faith in the expertise of doctors than politicians. Says her father, a lifelong farmer and man she respects greatly, feels the biomass plant is a “get-rich-quick scheme.” He father expresses strong doubts about the farming of miscanthus grass in this area. Begs the city to vote against the proposal.

22.44

John Burger expresses sympathy for those that have to make such decisions for the city. However, he calls for a referendum on the biomass proposal.

Dr. Ryan Scherer points out that Ohio River valley and Los Angeles have more fine particulate pollution at this exact time than any other region of the country. Emphasizes the incredibly small nature of fine particulates and the dangerous quality that represents to health.

22.45

Now entering final phase of forum, a second Question and Answer session from audience.

22.50

Denise Schell: asks who can the public send questions to after tonight?

If you have questions send them to Mr. Hauersburger on the website and he will forward it to whoever can answer the questions.

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22.55

Nancy Fleck asks if proposed trucking route will go through a residential area of city. Also inquires as to the effects of the traffic on air pollution and traffic congestion.

Schuetter responds that only highways and Cathy Lane will be used for truck routes. No deliveries Saturday afternoons, on Sunday, or at night, according to Mr. Catasein. Plant will have two days stock of grass on hand in case weather conditions, etc. would make deliveries unfeasible on a given day.

Shaddix says concern over particles is understandable, but that focusing on emissions from biomass plant alone represents a “vacuum” of focus and narrow thought on the subject. States we have much more to worry about than just a biomass plant.

23.03

After the commentary section ended at around 10:40 many of the crowd departed the Jasper Arts Center. Now many of the standard opponents to the biomass are participating in the Q&A session.

23.12

Alek Calla questions the validity of Shaddix’s claims regarding burn tonnage allowances. Seems to suggest reports about burn quantity and emissions have been deliberately misleading.

Rock Emmert is asking a question in Dr. Sammons’ stead, who had to leave to testify before Congress tomorrow. Questions the validity of Shaddix’s data, and requests a disclosure of his sources.

Shaddix says his sources have already been made public, including details of bag house efficiency, which Emmert and Sammons are calling into question.

Emmert continues to request that Shaddix personally forward his source to Sammons, prompting frustration from Shaddix over this implied lack of diligence. Shaddix agrees to contact Sammons.

Dr. Kreilein chastises Mr. Catasein for making claims about falling asthma rates, questioning the accuracy and appropriateness of his claims. Mr. Catasein declares he had no intention to deceive and had amended his statements upon past requests.

23.13

The representatives are stating that they have not relied upon medical data nor quoted it since they are not medical professionals, they are environmental professionals.

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23.14

Amy Breedlove; Is curious to what the group’s con’s list if they have a pro’s and con’s list?

Bud Schitter responds that concerning a pros and cons list, Breedlove interrupts and says she just wants to know the cons. He continues by saying pros and cons go hand in hand. He then expressed that of course the health risks were a con, but in considering how Jasper utilities operates and the rising cost of utilities and infrastructure in Jasper they had to make changes to address those problems.

23.18

Dr. Johnson thanks attendees for their participation and turns over forum to mayor for official adjournment.

23.19

Bud Schitter responds; the pros and cons go together, the cons are the health effects. The pros are they are going to put everything they can into protecting the citizens.

Breedlove is requesting three minutes added to the clock since Shaddix took about three minutes of the time to answer a question.

Kreilein’s son, put a price on your grand-baby’s health.The audience applauds.

Alan Johnson then closes. Mayor thanks all the participants and point the remainder of the crowd to handouts in the lobby of the Art Center.

Adjourned.

For the record, the DC Freep has attempted to portray the questions and answers during the public forum as accurately as possible during the rapid succession of events, however this should not be considered and official transcript. An official transcript of the public forum will be available from the City of Jasper.